- Historic American Engineering Record
As a proponent of historic bridges... in regards to the latest problems with this bridge as shown here http://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/article/Plague-of-problem... I think only one graphic truly conveys how I feel.
6.4 BILLION dollars they spent on this bridge?! And still all these problems?! You can't tell me you couldn't have retrofitted and rehabbed the historic truss for 6.4 BILLION dollars...
I do not care to comment on the correctness of any of this, from Chinese steel to replacing an historic cantilever, but I found the photos and diagrams of the new structure interesting.
Some people are making an effort to reuse some this fantastic bridge! We are a group trying to save some of this steel and concrete for historic purposes and create modern eco housing and a coworker multi-use space. http://BayBridgeHouse.org
Hmm... I wonder how many Wal-marts it leads to...
One of the largest and most complex structures ever built on this planet, and one of the most important historic bridges in the United States, has forever been severed by the opening of the Chinese constructed Eastern Spans of the Oakland Bay Bridge. Unlike the previous bridge, this new bridge has been riddled with structural problems, is way over budget, and did not use American steel. http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/64b-sf-oakland-bay-bridge...
Pot metal is any old junk that can melt at relatively low temperatures. Usually it's a cheap combination of zinc and tin, sometimes there is a bit of aluminum or lead in it. It's used for castings of things that don't need great physical strength, and can have a less than uniform appearance.
Cheap, low temp, zinc alloy, good for casting inexpensive parts. Brittle and weak in tension--breaks when bent. Usually slang for any substandard alloy.
What's "pot metal?"
Let's discuss where our scrapped bridges end up. Hint: It isn't on these shores. You'd think that perhaps we could reuse the metal for projects here. But the truth is most winds up in the same place that brings us cheap pot metal products we find on Wal-mart shelves. And the USA loses again.
You see right there. The only reason you want their name is to threaten violence. You can't win on the merits of your argument so you threaten violence. The minute you do that you've admitted defeat. Why couldn't you simply chime in and support patriotic leanings instead of somehow justifying the use of Chinese steel in our nation's infrastructure? Let's leave this topic alone and get back to admiring bridges.
Now isn't that just like a bunch of guys-if we weren't on the Internet, the fists would be flying. Now, if it was women, we'd say nice things about you, but then talk about you behind your backs.
(this is all tongue-in-cheek BTW-just to lighten the mood :)
There are indeed contract provisions requiring American Steel on highway contracts. I don't work in California, so I'm not familiar with their policies, but the law itself does exist. You may want to look into what excuse they came up with to try and circumvent the requirements.
The Republican-Democrat debate has nothing to do with this. Both parties are equal opportunity liars and thieves who'd sell out you the citizen who pays the bill at any time for any price.
I've noticed that those who turn these discussions into politically biased bash sessions also don't have the jewels to put their names with their air-headed comments! As I mentioned before, I AM Republican, but that certainly doesn't mean that I support Chinese steel, and that certainly doesn't make me anti-American! Obama is about as anti-American as they get--last time I checked, he was a DEMOCRAT! See? Doesn't make sense at all, does it?? This has absolutely ZERO to do with politics, and everything to do with the interests of America! Get a brain, and use it before posting!
Why do you take offense if you aren't the one who supported Chinese steel being used? The fact is they should have passed a LAW saying that the steel and labor had to come from America. That bridge should be ONE-HUNDRED PERCENT Made In USA. Period. If you support the use of Chinese steel then yes you are an anti-American republican. Typical.
On the day that they open that atrocity I'm going to be among the protesters protesting it being Made In China.
Well said Matt. Unfortunately, so folks just automatically blame all problems on the political opposition, because they have no critical thinking skills. Josef Stalin called them "useful idiots".
Inaccurate stereotype--I'm a heartless Republican, and I hate the new bridge. This has nothing to do with partisan politics, and everything to do with common sense. Anyone with half a functioning brain cell can see right off the bat that this project is as poorly planned out and executed as it could possibly be, with the best interests of America not even considered.
Why don't you go live in communist China if you love it so much. You must be a heartless republican.
IMO, the new bay bridge was “designed by politicians” and political considerations were more important than sensible engineering. The replacement span was originally supposed to be a "signature" cable stay and there were even other proposed alternatives that looked better than the actually-built new bridge, but the politicians, namely gov Arnold Schwarzenegger, "terminated" the signature cable-stay design for the cheap Chinese alternative. Heck, when Schwarzenegger was governor he actually visited the Chinese factory where components for the bridge were being built.
Sorry, but I sharply disagree on all of Anon's points--not to be critical, but to simply point out that this could have been executed far better than it is with this project...first, as Nathan pointed out, one side of one deck section came loose--pretty darn good for an earthquake that did substantial damage to most newer structures! Two large pins (or bolts) sheared off; that's it. No structural damage to the superstructure at all. I predict that this will be a huge issue with the cable support bolts on the new slab, since new bolts have already broken on it, and it's not even open yet. They're quick to blame US bolts, I've noticed, BTW...New bridges are probably mostly bad architecture, but the old bridges that we on this site favor are straight-up civil engineering--every member not only looks good, but serves a critical structural purpose. New bridges cannot make that claim. As for the steel comment, if the US couldn't produce the steel for one lousy bridge project, then we'd be in serious trouble...issue is, we couldnt match China's low prices--and refused to match their ultra-low quality. If Caltran want to pay cruddy steel prices, then they'll get cruddy China steel. I see what is constantly happening to China's new bridges in their own country--collapse after collapse; shoddy workmanship and design, and shoddy material. Sorry, a "Made in China" MOB is something that I will never understand and refuse to support. Ok, I'm done.
Living on solid ground here in Michigan I don't claim to be an expert on seismic issues relating to bridge preservation. Its not an area I specialize in. One of the many things I don't understand is why the lacing and lattice and rivets was seen as such a problem with this bridge, especially when many other bridges in the area including Golden Gate Bridge, retain these elements. Furthermore, while I don't dispute that the bridge as-built may be a risk with earthquakes, the section that collapsed in the previous earthquake was just a deck section. While serious, this seemed to me to be more a problem with the deck sections, not with the overall truss itself which was not damaged.
I don't understand the hatred on this site towards the replacement project. The old bridge is not safe. It will collapse in a major earthquake - it almost did in 1989, and studies show that there is a 70% chance of an earthquake large enough to destroy the bridge in the next 30 years.
The only alternative to replacement is a major retrofit which would include the replacement of almost every single member, just like the suspension span. ALL the lacing would be removed and replaced with plate girders or box beams. ALL the rivets would be removed and replaced with bolts. The appearance would be radically altered and little historic material would survive.
Bridges are architecture - which according to our Roman friend Vitruvius must be solid, useful, and beautiful. The old bridge doesn't hold up here. I am all for historic preservation when it is possible to create safe, useful, and attractive architecture out of existing structures but it simply isn't possible in this case.
On the Chinese steel point: American companies were welcome to bid. None of them did. ALL of the bids came from overseas. That may say something about our economy, but it's not the bridge designer's fault that the US isn't capable of producing the needed materials.
Things could be much worse: the people of San Francisco rejected a viaduct approach which was a two mile long ugly concrete bridge for a "signature span". The self-anchored suspension bridge, while not what I consider optimal, is at leas an interesting technology and much better than what could have happened.
Sounds like the new bridge might be "fracture critical".
Not only will this project result in the demolition of half of one of the most significant built structures in the history of the United States, the replacement bridge is a piece of junk. Like buying a bridge from the bargain bin at Walmart.
Repair and replace by another company please!
This pisses me off.
Wow, if the bolts are so important and SO hard to reach after other segments have been installed around them, WHY wouldn't they do a quality audit BEFORE they install them?
It could take 7 years and cost $240 million to tear down the old Bay bridge cantilever span after the new replacement span is opened to traffic this fall.
And the new replacement span is having problems too since 30 of the 288 giant bolts holding together the new bridge span have snapped.
The other just-as-sickening aspect of this is the fact that many jobs and revenue for our steelworkers and industry could have been generated by having this work done here rather than giving it to stinking China, just to save a lousy $400 million on a project that has a projected total price of well over $7 BILLION!! Seems very anti-American to me!! I'm sorry, but CALDOT blew it on this one, big time!!
This makes me want to projectile vomit just thinking about it...according to the New York Times (see link below), the beautiful cantilevered through truss portion of this bridge is being replaced with--get this--a nasty, disgusting Wal-Mart inspired MOB manufactured in China!! CHINA!!!! Just what I want to see--a big, nasty, MOB with the stamp "Made in China" emblazoned boldly for all the world to see!!
The bridge will be assembled here, but the superstructure is MADE IN CHINA!! )8>Q
I can't even put my utter disgust into words! Hey, Tony, how 'bout a big, nasty toilet award for these idiots!! Nathan, I may need a truckload of those little brown barf bags delivered PRONTO!! BLEAHH!!